In this engaging and thought provoking conversation, the first co-hosted Man Talk episode, Howard and Ryan unpack what Men’s Work is all about.
They share some of their experiences of Men’s Groups and broader themes of Men’s Work today including:
- What is Men’s Work? Where does it originate?
- What are some of the core concepts of Men’s Work?
- Our personal experiences of men’s work: What’s the point? Why put yourself through it?
- What are some of the contemporary Issues in Men’s Work today?
- Why is Men’s Work so important? What are the benefits?
Resources:
Books
- No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover: A guide for men to break free from people-pleasing tendencies and embrace authenticity.
- Iron John: A Book About Men by Robert Bly: A classic exploration of masculinity and personal growth.
- The Way of the Peaceful Warrior by Dan Millman
- The Four Agreements – by Don Miguel Ruiz
- King, Warrior, Magician, Lover by Robert Moore
Blogs
The Man Talk Blog: Offers insights and tips on relationships, emotional well-being, and personal growth.
The Good Men Project: A platform for men to share stories and explore modern masculinity.
Support Groups and Communities
Mankind Project: A global network of men’s groups focused on personal development and emotional intelligence.
Evryman: Facilitates men’s groups and retreats to foster emotional connection and growth.
For more about my co-host check him out – RyanSpanger.com.
Do you want to learn more ways to improve your relationship skills?
Check out our Online Mini Course:
‘From Shut Down to Communication – 4 Relationship Boosting Strategies for Men’
Follow us + Join the Conversation
www.menandrelationships.com.au
Contact us – howard@menandrelationships.com.au
If this episode raises a need to get some counselling support Howard is available for consultations in Australia.
Check out his private practice:
Men and Relationships Counselling
Or reach out to a professional in your area.
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00] Howard: What is men’s work? Is it just a fancy term for getting your **** together? Or is it about finding the right space with the right person or people or structure and framework to talk about how you navigate being a bloke today?
[00:16] About your expectations of yourself, your emotional well being or how you experience life?
[00:22] How often are you encouraged to share your inner world? How do you share your fears, your worries, your hopes, your dreams and your successes?
[00:32] In this co hosted episode, I am joined in conversation with a good friend and unpack our experiences and explore the meaning, the value and the purpose of men’s work.
[00:43] Welcome to mantalk, a podcast of real conversations about life, your life, our life, the emotional well being of men. My name is Howard Todd Collins. I’m the director of Men and Relationships Counseling.
[00:57] Thank you for being here. Sit back and relax and join me and my very good friend Rya for this latest episode of Men Talk.
[01:24] Howard: I am absolutely delighted to be sitting in a very cozy little studio with my very good friend Ryan Spanger, who is a man who has come to my attention over the years, partly because I’ve met you through your partner Lindy, who’s been a good friend of mine for a long time.
[01:41] And I was keen to start conversations with somebody as part of the ManTalk podcast. Not just me on my own. Here I am in this lovely studio in Caulfield south, very leafy part of Melbourne.
[01:51] As a way of starting, say hello and who you are and anything about you. What would you say? How would you introduce yourself?
[01:58] Ryan: Firstly, great to be here, thanks for coming. Exciting. It’s something we talked about for a little while. Now it’s happening. But this is great. And I guess to introduce myself, I would say I work as a filmmaker.
[02:09] Howard: Yes.
[02:10] Ryan: I’m also very interested in men’s work and I’ve been a member of a men’s group or different men’s groups for over 10 years now.
[02:18] Howard: Yeah, okay. We have that in common a little bit. I think we’ll get to that. Yes.
[02:22] Ryan: Yeah. And then some of the things which I guess in some ways connect to the men’s work.
[02:27] And so there seems to be all these things which branch off. And so I’ve connected with this group who’s very interested in, they call the mythopoetic men’s movement.
[02:35] Howard: Okay.
[02:36] Ryan: And as part of that, there’s kind of other aspects, whether it’s poetry or the work of Robert Bly is, is very inspirational for that kind of group. And then there seems to be a lot of activities which kind of connect people Whether it’s meditation or breath work or cold water or just different disciplines which kind of branch off.
[02:55] Everyone’s into different things. But I’ve just found it’s been like a really rich terrain to discover.
[03:00] Howard: How did you start men’s work, and how would you even describe what it is? People listening to us who never heard of men’s work, from men to men talking about menswear, what would it.
[03:10] What would you start talking about? How would you describe it?
[03:13] Ryan: I was lucky enough that a friend of mine put this group together. He had this idea, and I don’t think it had even come across my radar at that point, but he said he’s putting together this men’s group,
[03:24] and he actually had access to someone that he knew who’d done a lot of men’s work.
[03:29] And he actually came and helped us set up the group, which is great. So he explained to us how a group works, how you create a culture and rules around it.
[03:38] Howard: Okay.
[03:39] Ryan: How the format might work. You know, how you can create it together.
[03:43] Howard: Yes.
[03:43] Ryan: Some of the language, how to share, how to deal with challenging dynamics.
[03:48] Howard: So that was all new to you before you even started that. That kind of idea of talking with other men,
[03:55] listening, sharing stories,
[03:57] doing work together was completely new to you?
[03:59] Ryan: Mostly. Many years ago, I studied counseling. Like, I did a graduate diploma in counseling. And it was, like, very early in my career where, as a filmmaker, I thought,
[04:09] I’m not sure whether there’s actually going to be a career here for me. And I guess I saw counseling as firstly something that I was very interested in.
[04:15] Howard: Yes.
[04:15] Ryan: But maybe like an alternative career path that I could follow. And then while I was studying, then the filmmaking took off. But I was able to bring in some aspects of counseling.
[04:25] Howard: Yes. Into the world.
[04:26] Ryan: Filmmaking, interviewing, that kind of thing. But as part of that, we did study group work.
[04:30] Howard: Yes.
[04:30] Ryan: And group dynamics. And it was really a bit of a taste of group work. And then this was. Extension is like group work for men.
[04:39] Howard: So this is part of. I imagine I’m thinking back to the way I started. I obviously do a lot of my work with men. The purpose of even entering this, the kind of men’s work space,
[04:50] which is often to do with group work. It’s not always. I mean, men’s work is quite broad,
[04:56] but the focus was on change or personal development or meeting other men. Or was it a combination of all those things?
[05:04] Ryan: I think it was just about identifying the challenges of being a man in society and the different responsibilities and pressures, particularly with a young family and it’s all stuff that we never were taught.
[05:15] Howard: Yeah.
[05:16] Ryan: It was never really shown to us by our dads or by elders or at school. Yeah. How do you navigate this terrain of what it’s like to be these different versions of a man?
[05:27] Howard: Yeah.
[05:27] Ryan: To be a father, to be a partner, to allocate time to yourself and your hobbies, to your career, that kind of thing.
[05:36] Howard: Yeah, yeah.
[05:36] Ryan: And stuff that comes up. And I think maybe for the first few years I’m just bluffing my way through, working things out as you go. And then. Okay. You can actually become conscious of it through a deliberate space you get together.
[05:48] And it’s very different, isn’t it, to any other space where it’s not like the.
[05:53] There’s really as much opportunity to. Let’s say for banter.
[05:57] Yeah. For cynicism. Yeah. Or for any.
[06:00] Not to say that there isn’t a place for anything like that. But this is more a space where you can come to and talk about exactly how you feel, what’s going on.
[06:08] Howard: Yes.
[06:09] Ryan: And I don’t think we. I don’t think I really had any other space in that way.
[06:13] Howard: So I think I had the same experience early on, beginning to realize as a man or as a bloke who were my role models of talking about my emotional experience,
[06:26] my role in life, my relationship life up until my probably early 30s. I’m now 61. So 30 years ago,
[06:35] when I began to think about my own personal development, I had no idea that I had an inner world that I could share with anybody else to that degree, certainly other men particularly, because it was pretty much all about being a good man, giving to the community, or putting myself out there towards helping other people.
[06:53] I’ve always been a helper, which is why I’m doing what I’m doing even today. But understanding my own needs and my own context of my own internal life was very new to me until I met my partner who’s got a psychological background and my mother in law’s a retired psychologist.
[07:09] So I had no chance when I first went into her family about looking at personal development and beginning to realize that there was a whole inner world that I would very rarely share with people.
[07:20] Wasn’t the way I grew up British, stoic, middle class,
[07:24] good family, but not particularly emotional. So when I first came into the whole world of personal development,
[07:29] I went into therapy and I went into a men’s group within the first couple of years. And I like what you were saying about this idea of creating space,
[07:38] because if you create the right Space with the right people,
[07:42] maybe with the right framework, Men talk. Men actually do talk about themselves.
[07:47] And I didn’t know anything about that until I began to look at my own life. But also working in mental health with people with mental health issues, mainly men,
[07:55] back in the day was in the sort of welfare sector, working with people who psychosocial rehab skills that they were looking how to live a life without their mental health issues getting in the way.
[08:05] And we,
[08:06] my colleagues and I, back in the day, realized that there were men there who weren’t talking about anything that were coping with their mental health, but their mental health system.
[08:14] And they were never talking. They would smoke lots of cigarettes and drink coffee, essentially.
[08:18] So we created this space of men, this is 20 years ago now, where we would sit down and talk about how was your week,
[08:25] what was your day like today? How did you cope with going through seeing your doctor or dealing with your relationship. And suddenly we were in a men’s group and we began to realize the need that men have to come and talk as long as there’s a space that could be created.
[08:38] I’m curious a bit about what you think men need to talk safely in a group as much as talking one on one like you and I are today.
[08:48] The men’s work, in terms of the group space that you’re talking about, what’s the safety that’s required for men to open up?
[09:02] Ryan: From my experience, it just seems to be very simple. And that’s to be part of a group where you are just heard with minimal judgment.
[09:11] Howard: Yes.
[09:11] Ryan: Or attempts to fix,
[09:14] but actually space where you can bring yourself and whatever’s going on and for that just to be heard. So a lot of it is not even so much like getting feedback or talking it through or anything like that.
[09:25] To me, a lot of it’s just getting stuff off your chest that just wouldn’t really be appropriate in a lot of other spaces.
[09:32] Howard: Yeah. So tell me more about that. Because. Because there was something in. In my experience of working with men, but also in my experience of being in a group,
[09:41] the idea of listening as opposed to fixing or solution or advice or something. Because a lot of us, certainly a lot of the men that I work with that I meet want to be told what to do.
[09:52] They want to be able to fix something in their lives. They need the steps to say, if I just do that, I’ll be this, I’ll be okay.
[10:00] Yet you’re talking about something different. There’s a bit more of a kind of process almost that people can talk and be heard,
[10:08] but also confronted. Is that part of your men’s work experience where you can be given feedback about what you’re talking about? Good or bad feedback. But is that part of it?
[10:18] Ryan: In the first group that I was in, it was more part of it. There was more challenging to go on,
[10:24] which would make the work harder in some ways,
[10:27] but it would also force us to hold us to account a little bit more.
[10:31] So sometimes it would be like, a little bit messy because it could become, like, a little bit confrontational or even worse,
[10:40] maybe someone feeling offended but not saying it. And then during that.
[10:46] And then the guy who taught us the men’s work, from what he described, his previous men’s group was much more confrontational. Ours was quite clear.
[10:54] Howard: This is easy, right? Yes. Yeah.
[10:58] Ryan: And then the group that I’m in now is.
[11:01] There’s very little challenging where there’s pluses and minuses as well. Yes. Because sometimes it’s healthy. Like, it’s good. You want to be challenged. You need to be challenged, pulled on things.
[11:12] But I think, like, the most healthy thing is that it’s a group of men coming together and sending the signal wherever you at, whatever’s going on for you today or tonight, yeah, it’s okay.
[11:22] Yeah, you can bring it. You can exist within it. And. And that’s fine. And that’s fine.
[11:28] Howard: Yeah.
[11:28] Ryan: And I find that that’s very healing.
[11:30] Howard: It is very healing. And it reminds me, one of the men’s groups that I. This is many years ago. One of my first encounters in the men’s group that I had was around a bonfire.
[11:39] This is going back a while. It was down the Great Ocean Road in Victoria. Beautiful.
[11:43] Ryan: And was this an actual organized.
[11:44] Howard: It was an organized men’s group. There was about eight of us. And I. I was early on in my personal development. I was fairly intimidated by the idea. I wasn’t sure I knew that I was interested in the idea of talking with other men.
[11:59] I was intimidated by the characters in the group,
[12:02] most of whom I thought were probably more enlightened than I was.
[12:06] And who was I? I knew nothing. That kind of internal dialogue that thought, I’m just this kind of quiet, fairly gentle bloke, but not speaking up much. And I was surrounded by these very seemingly confident men.
[12:20] And so for a while, I was feeling it out. And my first experience with the men’s group was away for a weekend. It was a kind of initiation, part of the first few sessions or whatever.
[12:30] And I remember feeling really shut down and not particularly safe.
[12:35] And it didn’t say very much. And later in the weekend, someone said to me, so what do you think?
[12:42] And I said, about what?
[12:44] About where you’re at in your life. And it was a question that kind of threw me because one,
[12:50] maybe I never really thought about the question. But two, I didn’t know these people that well.
[12:54] They were still strangers to me.
[12:56] After a while, we started talking about the ground rules of what it means to validate and encourage and not judge each other for the fear that maybe was in the group about speaking up.
[13:08] I’ve learned a lot more about the idea of sharing my fears,
[13:12] my vulnerabilities, my worries, my strengths,
[13:16] my successes, but also this kind of space within that says, God, I actually don’t always know who I am. And then I realized other men felt the same way.
[13:24] Ryan: Yeah.
[13:25] Howard: And so over time, it’s like the idea of taking the mask off a little bit,
[13:30] that we’re not just this, we are. But we’re not just these successful, confident,
[13:34] smiley, expressive people. We’re also men who are fearful, who have internal wounds that we’ve carried for whatever reason, that we can explore that inner world with other blokes who are doing the same thing.
[13:46] And I guess that’s part of the men’s work that I think you’ve probably experienced.
[13:51] It’s part of what I know of some of the men’s work that I’ve done.
[13:54] I’m curious about that part of men’s work that’s not just group related.
[13:58] There’s a whole load of personal development stuff out there for men nowadays that I think it’s part of men’s work. I was just thinking as I’m talking about this, people listening in who think of the term men’s work.
[14:10] Is it only men’s groups or is it broader than that? What do you think?
[14:21] Ryan: I’ve come to see my men’s group as more of a touchstone because we meet once a month for two hours.
[14:27] Howard: Yeah.
[14:28] Ryan: So I’ve realized I’ve got to be realistic about what I can achieve within those two hours.
[14:32] Howard: Okay.
[14:33] Ryan: And so I’ve also had situations like this vulnerability hangover where I’ll come and like share.
[14:39] And then afterwards it’s like maybe I’ve shared too much or I just haven’t had the opportunity to process it properly. But actually the group can only do so much. Like it’s a container that it’s not like therapy, it’s a different process.
[14:51] And I think if you’re doing like you say, therapy is going to be much Deeper work than a men’s group. But for me, it just reconnects me with the feeling of aspiring to be authentic with other men and also seeing what they’re doing.
[15:04] Being inspired by them tapping into a network of other men who are trying to be better.
[15:09] Howard: Yes. Yeah.
[15:10] Ryan: What I’ve realized, for me, a lot of it is like, I’m just operating from a very imperfect place. Like, in a lot of ways, I’ve come to accept that unlike a lot of other things in my life, I don’t really know what I’m doing with hands.
[15:21] I’m working it out,
[15:23] and it’s okay to not have the answer a lot of the time. Sometimes it’s a bit messy or imperfect. Sometimes you get it wrong, but you have good intentions. To me, that means work.
[15:31] Howard: I like the way you describe that.
[15:33] Let’s take the part of us that are perfectly imperfect. We’re all flawed and. But you’re allowed to share a bit of that with other people, and you can see other people’s capacity to honor that as well in some way.
[15:45] Ryan: Yeah, it’s like, it’s. It can be quite clumsy work. Whereas I guess when you’re working with a therapist, like, I imagine in your work,
[15:53] you’re just so tuned into working with a client, guiding the process,
[15:57] feeling what they need.
[15:59] And I guess men’s work, it just unfolds a lot more organically, and it depends on the energy,
[16:03] who’s there on the day, how people connect with each other. And,
[16:07] I don’t know, maybe something tricky triggers you.
[16:09] Howard: I think you’ve clearly got a group that you’re in now that works really, in some ways really well for you. For you. I know you’ve had experiences where it hasn’t worked that way, and I’ve been the same.
[16:18] And there is something a bit about. And it reminds me, I think, of this idea that I learned back in the day with the mental health clients when I was working with, that I was working with guys who were highly disenfranchised.
[16:31] They were stigmatized because of their mental health. They came to our programs because they wanted some psychosocial support,
[16:38] but they were wounded guys as well. And we began to create this space which said,
[16:42] we’re all broken in some way. We’re allowed to speak about it. We’re not going to judge it or stigmatize you.
[16:48] And they just kept coming back for more conversations.
[16:51] But the safety of being imperfect is what you’re talking about. And I don’t know whether this is right. I meet many men who I get privileged in a way to meet men who are wanting to come and talk to me.
[17:03] But the idea of being broken,
[17:05] of being unfixable, is a real shame based experience for some men.
[17:10] And when they realize what they’re going through is normal,
[17:14] when we normalize the imperfection and this struggle we have with ourselves, but we can actually find maybe some clarity in the connection with other men,
[17:23] it’s quite a powerful experience.
[17:24] We don’t have to hide it as much. The men’s group provides space for that.
[17:29] Therapy provides space for that. Certainly with other men.
[17:32] How do men generally deal with that internalized sort of discomfort of vulnerability, do you think? Outside of therapy and men’s groups, what do men do?
[17:44] Ryan: That’s a good question.
[17:45] Howard: I think the people that are listening to us probably, I imagine, are thinking,
[17:49] actually we’re part of this podcast of talking about men with and for other men who are listening to us. And I wonder what they think about this idea of being vulnerable, having a capacity to share your inner world,
[18:02] to struggle in a relationship, to deal with loss and transitions of life. It’s essentially those are the humanistic concepts and elements that I think men and boys are trying to work out for generations.
[18:13] Really?
[18:14] Ryan: Yeah.
[18:14] Howard: How do we lead? How do we lead them and guide them in some way? Because you’re kind of part of that movement now. In some way.
[18:21] Ryan: Vulnerable is an interesting word.
[18:23] Howard: Yeah.
[18:23] Ryan: Because like in some ways in our social media culture today, there’s this like fetishization of vulnerability that sometimes people think. I love that word.
[18:32] Howard: Fetishization of vulnerability.
[18:35] Ryan: Yeah.
[18:35] Howard: It’s hard to remember this episode.
[18:37] Ryan: Yeah.
[18:37] Howard: Yeah.
[18:37] Ryan: It’s an. You’re actually twisting the meaning of something and you imbuing it with value that wasn’t actually there. Yeah. Because if you think about vulnerability in nature.
[18:47] Howard: Yes.
[18:48] Ryan: If an animal shows that it’s vulnerable, then it could be opening itself up to attack.
[18:54] So like at the, like,
[18:56] it’s quite fashionable, vulnerability with Brene Brown and all that kind of thing. But it’s like actually appropriate. Vulnerability, I think, is much more important.
[19:04] Choosing the right moment.
[19:05] Howard: Yeah.
[19:06] Ryan: To make yourself vulnerable. It’s. If my dog rolls over on its back and it’s making itself vulnerable because it feels nice within a trusting environment to do that.
[19:15] Howard: Yeah.
[19:16] Ryan: But then you get other situations where people are like overly vulnerable on social media or places where it actually doesn’t make sense. So starting to find those right opportunities. Like it could be in a men’s group where you,
[19:28] if you know you’re in a safe place,
[19:30] you get to try out being something a little bit different to how you are in your normal life, Take a little bit of a risk, maybe show a part of yourself you haven’t shown anyone for a long time, or admit something and just do it gently in a place that’s safe.
[19:43] Howard: So safety is. I get what you’re saying about social. The social media thing is really awkward and really quite difficult. And I’ve seen a lot of people do this, love, this fetishization of vulnerability, because it just feels icky and there’s something about it that’s not quite appropriate.
[20:00] But the safety of being open and taking a risk is something I think a lot of my listeners will be interested in. Because in a way,
[20:12] how does that come across?
[20:13] How do we present that as being of value to men who are even.
[20:17] Howard: Thinking about men’s work?
[20:18] Howard: Either men’s groups or counseling therapy, personal development groups or online workshops, whatever it is, that does carry some question.
[20:27] How do I know it’s safe?
[20:29] You’ve discovered something in the men’s groups where what is it that says this is okay to talk about this?
[20:35] And I think some of that is the listening,
[20:37] the validating, the normalizing,
[20:40] acknowledging without the judgment or the label.
[20:44] And I don’t know whether we’re very good at teaching that to people, particularly blokes of my generation. About yours, we’re slightly. We’re not that far away from each other. We’re a few years.
[20:54] Because I didn’t grow up with that.
[20:56] My growing up was,
[20:57] be good, behave yourself,
[21:00] do well for your community,
[21:01] to revive external. Really that sense of identity of a man being the giver, the carer, the provider, to do things outside of yourself. But you’re talking about the men’s work idea, which is actually internal work,
[21:17] as well as putting it out into some space in some way.
[21:21] How would you describe internal work?
[21:30] Ryan: I think it’s like just acknowledging and expressing parts of yourself that you feel like you haven’t been able to express. But it isn’t a space within your society or your family or whatever it might be.
[21:40] And then that’s like a heavy load because you’re incongruent.
[21:44] Like the way you feel, the way you act, the way you think aren’t in alignment, and the things to some degree that’s healthy because let’s say, if I work in a corporate environment,
[21:54] it’s not appropriate for me to be too vulnerable or to explore aspects of my psyche.
[21:59] But if there isn’t somewhere where you can actually bring as much of yourself as you can in the right circumstance, then, yeah, it gets to be a very heavy load.
[22:08] And so what if you have ideas about sexuality that aren’t accepted or appropriate, or you are called upon to be like a tough bloke when there’s a sensitive side that you can’t show?
[22:20] Howard: Yeah.
[22:20] Ryan: Maybe it’s the opposite. Yeah, maybe you’re like a really nice guy.
[22:24] Howard: Yeah.
[22:24] Ryan: There’s like an aggressive aspect. So it’s not just one thing.
[22:27] Howard: Yeah. Where does it come out?
[22:28] Ryan: Yeah, like it. And hopefully, like, with something like a men’s group, there’s more space for you to say, here’s some other aspect.
[22:35] Howard: Yes.
[22:35] Ryan: The shadow side. Right. The unexplained side.
[22:38] Howard: Yeah.
[22:38] Ryan: Give that a bit of form. And for people to actually. To have the experience of saying all the stuff and people just sitting there and going,
[22:46] either, yeah, I hear what you’re saying. I get it. I’ve experienced something similar. Or thank you for sharing that with us.
[22:52] Howard: And that’s okay.
[22:53] Ryan: I’m curious, can I ask you a question?
[22:55] Howard: Yeah. Which is quite freeing, isn’t it? You’re talking about freeing up,
[22:59] Acknowledging the shadow, but freeing it up in a space that is accepting and caring and warm enough to accept that.
[23:07] Making room. The idea of making room for all these parts of ourselves is a real core part of the men’s work that you’re talking about.
[23:17] It’s also part of therapy and counseling. It’s also. It’s a bit different when you’re with other men, because most of us. I don’t know whether this is right. I used to think growing up and in my mid to early 20s,
[23:30] globes are supposed to be fairly strong,
[23:33] fairly supposedly successful. I used to have this idea that you’re supposed to be popular growing up in a. With a twin and with lots of other young men around me, especially in a large group of social people around me where I think I want to be like him,
[23:50] I actually want to be like him. And that’s. That kind of idea of being something that we’re not really resonates with me. And it resonates with a lot of people that I work with.
[23:59] So when we free up ourselves to experiment a bit,
[24:03] somehow it starts to feel like it’s easier and better than hiding.
[24:07] And a lot of men that I meet hide a lot when they come out into therapy and start talking with somebody like me and they get permission to speak about whatever they want, something.
[24:17] They’re not going to kill themselves or kill somebody else or break the law.
[24:21] There’s a real freeing of that. And you’re talking about that in the context of a small group. I think maybe eight or nine people.
[24:28] Ryan: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.
[24:30] Howard: This idea of safety, I think is what’s so important about any kind of men’s work that people are doing.
[24:35] And I think that’s important to recognize for anybody doing their own emotional work.
[24:39] Ryan: Yeah, it’s important because different groups have different dynamics and some can be more confrontational. And I have heard stories about people going along to a group and coming away feeling hurt,
[24:50] feeling too confronted and.
[24:51] Howard: Not taken care of.
[24:53] Ryan: Yeah.
[24:53] Howard: The other part of the men’s work that I know is a combination of sitting and talking and processing and breath work and rituals around the archetypes. For example,
[25:03] and there are men doing stuff in the wilderness and then in.
[25:07] Out walking. There are men who are doing warrior based work.
[25:11] Ryan: Yeah.
[25:12] Howard: Very physical as well as talking. It’s like a combination of both. Has that been your experience?
[25:17] Ryan: I haven’t done anything like that, no. But I think there’s. Yeah. All these different approaches.
[25:21] Howard: Yeah.
[25:21] Ryan: And I feel like since COVID there’s a general feeling of anything goes and I mean that in a positive way. That leads to be a lot more judgment around what’s okay and what’s not okay.
[25:32] Howard: Yes.
[25:32] Ryan: And now that kind of the world seems a little bit more crazy.
[25:35] Howard: Yes.
[25:36] Ryan: Whatever works. And just a lot of alternative things have become very mainstream now.
[25:40] Howard: Yes.
[25:41] Ryan: So I think people are a lot more open to trying all this stuff.
[25:43] Howard: Yeah.
[25:43] Ryan: And there’s a lot of suffering.
[25:45] Howard: Yes.
[25:46] Ryan: And so I think if you told someone that you maybe that you were going to do some wilderness thing, they might have in the past gone, oh, that sounds a bit crazy.
[25:54] Or what’s just a lot more acceptance.
[25:57] If it works and it’s healthy, then great.
[25:59] Howard: I’m curious if you were to sum up the kind of purpose and benefits. But also maybe before that, I was just thinking, I think it’s a question that you raised with me not long ago about why do we do this?
[26:17] Some of the work that I know that I do and you’ve done and you’re doing, and some of the work I do with the men that I work with often say, God, this is so difficult.
[26:24] Howard: So it’s painful.
[26:26] Howard: It’s not painful as in awful pain, but it can be confronting this idea of being able to share the shadows that we hold within us that we don’t talk about and come out a bit bruised and not battered,
[26:41] hopefully,
[26:42] but certainly a bit more vulnerable, a bit more bruised for a while and then integrate it Afterwards.
[26:48] So what is the point when you think about that part of the work that maybe you’ve done?
[26:53] Ryan: Well, it makes you uncomfortable. So I think most of my experience of being part of the men’s group, I think a lot of other people feel the same way, is you get to the day before,
[27:01] you get to the day of the group.
[27:03] Group’s on that night. You’re really feeling a little bit tired.
[27:06] You’re feeling a little bit overwhelmed.
[27:08] Maybe the weather’s cold outside.
[27:10] Howard: Yeah.
[27:10] Ryan: You start to come up with reasons about why you should go,
[27:14] or, like, rehearsing what text you’re going to send,
[27:17] some excuse, some stories. So, like, in our group,
[27:20] there’s a rule, like,
[27:22] if you’re not coming.
[27:24] Howard: Yeah.
[27:24] Ryan: Then that’s fine. Just it gets tiresome, like receiving excuse after excuse that day. It’s like you have the right to choose to do whatever you want to do.
[27:34] Howard: Okay.
[27:35] Ryan: You’ll think to yourself,
[27:36] I could just sit at home and watch tv. I might think to myself, why would I want to go and put myself through something uncomfortable? Yeah, spare my soul a little bit.
[27:44] Feel awkward,
[27:45] bring up feelings of shame, all that sort of thing. And I think it’s probably the same reason why I will push through and go in cold water or go to the gym or do anything to expose myself to, like,
[27:58] discomfort in order to make myself stronger and try to heal. Because I like what you’re saying about, you know, that idea of feeling damaged and all that kind of thing.
[28:07] I read this book, this Oliver Berkman book recently. I forgot what it’s called. But he. In the book, he says something like, there’s no need to live your life in the brace position as if the planes are about to crash, because it’s already crashed and you’ve climbed out of the plane.
[28:21] You’re staggering around.
[28:23] And I thought, if I just accept that life is based on this crash has already happened and now I’m staggering, trying to find my feet and trying to find my way, then that just makes sense to me.
[28:35] Howard: So I think I like that analogy. I also like the analogy of no pain, no gain. Whereas there’s something about the. That once you free yourself up because you’re held really well by a group or by a therapist or by a workshop,
[28:49] that you start to benefit something out of being more clear about what’s going on or releasing something that you’ve been holding back safely, that you feel lighter and maybe a bit clearer about yourself.
[29:01] I don’t know if that’s part of your experience coming out of the groups that you. Even though there’s a bit of resistance before you go in,
[29:07] it’s the ones you’re in and you. It’s worth it, by the sense.
[29:10] Ryan: It’s worth it. Yeah. I think for me, I just think I want to be a better dad. I want to keep on doing whatever I can to be a good dad, have a good relationship with my kids.
[29:19] I want to be a good partner. A better partner. I want to learn how to love better. My partner, my kids, but also friends. I want to learn how to love myself better.
[29:29] Howard: Yeah.
[29:30] Ryan: If I’m not able to muster that, at least take the boot off my own neck, as I put it, and not give myself such a hard time.
[29:35] Howard: I love that. I love that. I love that. As in the way you describe.
[29:39] Ryan: Yeah.
[29:40] Howard: But I think that would resonate with a lot of people that. Yeah. In our way.
[29:44] Ryan: Yeah.
[29:44] Howard: Sometimes. Yes.
[29:45] Ryan: There’s very good reasons to do this type of work and connect with other men who are very imperfectly trying to go the same path as well.
[29:54] Howard: Yeah. I like that. And it reminds me of why I do the work I do, a part of which is having these kind of conversations with somebody like you, Ryan, as well.
[30:02] But I know that I’ve been there. I know that I was. And I still sometimes get in my own way when I think about my own.
[30:10] My professional life and my personal life have really been influenced by each other in some way.
[30:15] My personal life certainly has influenced my professional role. The fact that I work with men who struggle to talk or understand themselves is exactly where I was 20 years,
[30:26] 30 years ago.
[30:27] And to find a space where you can be authentic and open and risk being vulnerable and being accepted is the best feeling in the world. And some of that will benefit the idea of being a dad or a good partner,
[30:40] finding purpose and meaning in life.
[30:42] And you’re not doing it all on your own,
[30:44] but you’re doing it in a shared community of other men that you’ve met and you’re working with. And hopefully there are men that are listening out there that will recognize some of these themes in themselves.
[30:55] What I would be thinking about is don’t do it on your own. Don’t do it all on your own.
[31:01] Try and find a place in the space where you feel like you can belong to something that makes you feel like you’re working through your own stuff,
[31:09] because that’s kind of.
[31:10] Because a lot of us have. I certainly from a background of men who were quite isolated emotionally. I love my dad to bits, but he wasn’t that emotional.
[31:18] He was quite stoic and strong and relatively silent, but very strong worker, very committed to his family and the community. But no one knew what he felt like.
[31:28] So there’s something about coming out of the isolation in men’s work that could be incredibly powerful. So I’m mindful of time, so I don’t know. This conversation is like a start of something.
[31:39] It’s been lovely to speak to you and hear what you have to say about your experience of the work you’re doing.
[31:44] I don’t know, we might put some resources into the show notes and when we unpack the edit of this conversation anyway, we might give some of the listeners some ideas of what to look for in the men’s work,
[31:56] current men’s work movement, I guess in some men’s groups as well as other books to read, other resources, because we just two blokes with our own experience.
[32:05] And maybe that might be useful for some of the guys listening to find some resources for themselves.
[32:10] Ryan: Yeah, that’s a really good idea because if this work is new, then there’s some real classic texts that can be a good place to start. You can mention some of those.
[32:21] But also,
[32:22] as we’ve been talking,
[32:24] hopefully this has brought up some thoughts and feelings and that kind of thing. And on a practical level, what do you think is a good thing for men to do?
[32:33] Having spent some time thinking about this, thinking about how they are, what they want from their life, what do you think is like some good, practical stuff to do?
[32:40] Howard: Well, the first thing is go and find someone to talk to, certainly to read. There’s lots of stuff online to read. Yeah, but I tend to encourage guys to think a bit about.
[32:49] Are you dealing with these questions in isolation? Are they just going around your head constantly and you’re not sharing much about the questions themselves? And if you’re not sharing enough, then you’re isolating yourself.
[33:01] So there’s plenty of people doing this great work out there,
[33:04] including me, including other therapists, including men’s groups, who are willing to invite you in to talk about the questions you have for yourself and not to do it on your own.
[33:14] So whether it be therapists, coaches, online courses,
[33:17] or look at the men’s groups in their area to start doing some research about the fact that men are actually now talking about themselves a lot more than they’ve ever done.
[33:27] And it’s kind of brave step to take, but there’s people out there who want to talk about what you’re thinking about, questions about fatherhood,
[33:35] being a partner, Loving yourself,
[33:37] the idea of purpose and meaning, the way we get in our own way,
[33:41] all these kind of beliefs that we have that are either limiting us or helping us to grow.
[33:47] There’s a whole movement out there of people who are interested to hear about those things.
[33:51] And I would say that’s where you start to realize there are people out there who want to listen to you.
[33:56] Ryan: That makes a lot of sense.
[33:57] Howard: Yeah.
[33:57] Ryan: Thank you so much for inviting me on the podcast. I’ve loved speaking.
[34:00] Howard: Thanks for having me. You’re having me here in your lovely little studio. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you. And hopefully we’ll do it again soon.
[34:06] Ryan: Yes.
[34:06] Howard: Good on you.
[34:07] Ryan: Fantastic.
[34:08] Howard: Thank you.
[34:15] Howard: I really hope that you’ve enjoyed listening to the dulcet tones and of Ryan and I in conversation.
[34:21] What do you think about Ryan’s podcast voice? He’s got the most amazing sound. Anyway, men’s work is about stepping up in your self discovery. It’s not about fixing what’s broken, but about understanding yourself better,
[34:35] your emotional life, your values and your purpose. Even men’s work can be in a men’s group, in therapy or counseling. It could be as part of a workshop or a program,
[34:46] all of which need to be designed to help you show up more fully in your life as a partner, a father, a friend, and as a bloke.
[34:56] Men’s work is about being authentic and doing the work on yourself. You are not alone. There are numerous networks of men doing the same.
[35:05] Check the show notes for some resources I think you may find useful. There are some links there. Also, if you want to do some work with me, I would love to hear your thoughts.
[35:14] Let me know on Instagram. Mantalkwithhoward. Check the show notes also for some online products and programs that can help you make better sense of yourself.
[35:25] Thank you for listening. If you like what you hear, tell your mates. Give me a review wherever you found the podcast and I’ll catch you again in the next episode of Man Talk.
